Curse

Sleeper Service · Dec 12, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

so levels would only be "used" in PVE as part of character development story wise? why give them numbers? (lvl1 etc) why not just give us titles like "assended" "wei no su" etc and buff us accordingly to where we are in the game if we are bellow some arbitrary NON DISPLAYABLE level.

Then only toon owner could see his/her "level" but it would be only so that they could grind up a bit before moving onwards in the story.

just as long as Anet does not start handing out "buff" skills as to completely eliminate any merit other than "driving"....oh shi*

RLBadKarma · Dec 12, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I came into GW:EN at lvl 15. The buff only helped me with Health. My attributes were actually dumbed down a bit. With the Hero's and a little help from a guildie, I lvl'd to 20 the next day. I have never, NEVER posted any questions in the chat window. If I need information I go to the wiki or here. I didn't ask Anet for a buff or for them to lower anything. But I paid for GW:EN and will take advantage of whatever Anet offers. Not all lvl 10 chars you see in game are noobs, some are like me who understand what RPG's are about and are only working to get high enough to get into the good areas. Just because some (but not all) of the "veterans" feel that they own the higher areas and want to keep them all to themselves isn't enough of an argument to make any sense. From what I've read so far, I sense that most of this unhappy attitude is coming from a feeling of, "Well, I didn't get any help, why should they." When you enter into an explorable area, that instance of the game is created just for you and your party. The lvl 10 or whatever players are nowhere to be seen. Just you. So how exactly can that affect your part of the game?

As for Anet making decisions about the game. If this is/was a marketing thing, great. The more cash Anet can make, the longer those servers continue to operate and the longer we can play this game (with no subscription fee).

CHannum · Dec 12, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Speaking as a new player, I'm going to say that I don't care for what they've done. I finally made it to Lion's Arch with a L14 Warrior and had to give it a go since I do own EotN and figured it would be fun to take part in the promotion...

Pretty much made me feel like I need a shower, and that's with out even leaving the starter outpost. One hero tutorial later and I've got a max weapon of my choice AND two level 20 heros at my beck and call back in Prophecies.

The buff just makes no sense, even considering its slight handicap in the way it forces a particular attribute point distribution, it just seems stupid. I'm a married guy with two young children, if I can be hitting my mid teen levels in about 2 weeks of Prophecies, I'm not seeing what sort of attention deficited moron this was targetted at. Not that levels mean all that much, but this certainly removes all meaning in your character's development. Since he fights like a L20 but you earn XP like whatever your actual level is, it won't be long before he IS a L20 if you bother to hang around and quest.

Worse is the way it imbalances the game progression back in the home campaign. I wasn't able to bring myself to give up my shiny new healbot dwarf, but Vekk had to go. Areas that I had been wiping in repeatedly with just henchmen became cake with the two L20 heros backing me up. It really kills the sense of increasing challenge that needs to be overcome by your progression as a character and skills. It becomes a situation where you can pretty much let the game play itself until the environment catches up with your new toys, and that's just no fun.

I can see how this mid-game potential acceleration to L20 will be welcomed by the player base to whom the campaigns have become old hat and just want to make some alts, but for the first time player it's a ridiculously overpowered gimmick designed to make this game a bit too accessible. If it were up to me I'd change so you either had to be L20 OR have beaten a home campaign to access the EotN content and I'd toss out the silly buff enchantment altogether.

Aera Lure · Dec 12, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Pretty much made me feel like I need a shower, and that's with out even leaving the starter outpost. One hero tutorial later and I've got a max weapon of my choice AND two level 20 heros at my beck and call back in Prophecies.

Well again, my sentiment is so what? If you have another character you likely have a max weapon, runes, EQ, max armor and are well funded at a lower level. If you have Nightfall as well you also have a number of level 15 heroes very easily, whom, if you want, can also be leveled pretty quickly. Pretty much fail to see where two level 20 heroes from GWEN makes that much difference. Find it a little hard to believe this thread is still beating the idea around.

cellardweller · Dec 12, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Do you really think it would be a good idea to add a similar buff to high end areas in other campaigns like southern shiverpeaks and sorrow furnace?

Seriously? Your not kidding?

Level 1-19 has as much resemblance to guild wars as polymock and serves no purpose beyond making players that like seeing numbers go up comfortable. Giving players the buff everywhere (or just letting them create L20 characters in the first place) is a good thing as it lets them get on with playing with guild wars instead of forcing them into the L1-19 minigame.

Mordakai · Dec 12, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Let's set up this scenario:

Even if you don't buff Level 10 characters, how will that stop them from taking Level 20 Heroes and Henchies to power-level them through the game? The only difference is, they'd have to play support characters or stay behind and flag.

And even if you nerf the Heroes (bad idea), a level 10 goes to Nightfall where he can pick up level 17 heroes, correct?

Bottom line: The Buff is not necessary, but neither is it unfair.

There's really no logical argument against it. The argument for it is it makes the game more fun (I don't have to complete starter area for umpteenth time and can go right to GWEN - which I paid for!).

I'm all for updates that make the game more fun. For those who hate the idea, make a new character and try it out.

CHannum · Dec 12, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Well again, my sentiment is so what? If you have another character you likely have a max weapon, runes, EQ, max armor and are well funded at a lower level.

Read my post, I don't have another character higher, this is my first run through a, in my opinion, very well balanced and designed campaign and the balance and design is rendered null and void by just what you can nab in less than 15 minutes in EotN.

No, no one forced me to try it and I already stored the weapon and aren't using both heros because I actually like playing the campaign as it was designed.

For people who already played all the campaigns once, fine, this doesn't change anything except giving them a way to quickly level their alts, but it's poorly conceived from the perspective of a new player who should get to see the campaigns at least once in their designed fashion. From the perspective of someone who considers the meta issues around a game, I can't see how this helps out Anet, either. All MMO style games that I've played are based around the notion of repeating the storyline again and again at some point, I get that, but they're also based around the idea of actually playing that storyline the first time through, Anet seems to have forgotten that and so haven't you.

Without properly labelling this what it is, a "/cheatmode" for the game, Anet is detracting from the new player experience in a way that cannot help their longterm business. When you bill something like this as a promotion that everybody should take part in, it seems like something everybody should take part in, and I'm saying, no, it should be something that everybody who's beaten a campaign once should take part in with characters from that campaign, but others should have to wait. Finishing each campaign once is not that hard from everything I've seen and read, and it goes a long way to making the experience of the games more substantive than picking up a set of maxed out equipment and heros for free half way through the campaigns which makes the "finale" portion of the campaigns far less of a challenge.

Mordakai · Dec 12, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Read my post, I don't have another character higher, this is my first run through a, in my opinion, very well balanced and designed campaign and the balance and design is rendered null and void by just what you can nab in less than 15 minutes in EotN.

No, no one forced me to try it and I already stored the weapon and aren't using both heros because I actually like playing the campaign as it was designed.

For people who already played all the campaigns once, fine, this doesn't change anything except giving them a way to quickly level their alts, but it's poorly conceived from the perspective of a new player who should get to see the campaigns at least once in their designed fashion. From the perspective of someone who considers the meta issues around a game, I can't see how this helps out Anet, either. All MMO style games that I've played are based around the notion of repeating the storyline again and again at some point, I get that, but they're also based around the idea of actually playing that storyline the first time through, Anet seems to have forgotten that and so haven't you.

Without properly labelling this what it is, a "/cheatmode" for the game, Anet is detracting from the new player experience in a way that cannot help their longterm business. When you bill something like this as a promotion that everybody should take part in, it seems like something everybody should take part in, and I'm saying, no, it should be something that everybody who's beaten a campaign once should take part in with characters from that campaign, but others should have to wait. Finishing each campaign once is not that hard from everything I've seen and read, and it goes a long way to making the experience of the games more substantive than picking up a set of maxed out equipment and heros for free half way through the campaigns which makes the "finale" portion of the campaigns far less of a challenge.

Well, that's actually one of the best arguments I've read against it, especially considering the hypothetical player who just bought the Guild Wars Prophecy/GWEN combo pack. They get to Lion's arch at level 10 and they can go to GWEN and make the rest of Prophecies a whole lot easier...

But, to be honest, Prophecy is already "broken" with Drak's Runs, Nightfall Heroes, experienced level 20 players helping, etc. If a player wants to "cheat" themselves out of the "first time" experience, there are already tons of ways to do it.

Bottom line: this is optional, nothing is forcing a new player to do it, and as others have discussed, even with the buff and level 20 heroes, if you have no clue to what you are doing, GWEN can eat you up and spit you out. A new player then has two options: Go back to Prophecy and level up normally, or learn how to play the game in GWEN.

I'm all for giving players MORE choices, it's why I fell in love with Guild Wars in the first place.

I guess the real question is whether this will actually increase sales of GWEN, and to that question, who knows? I certainly hope so.

EDIT: Of course, they cynic will say that the 5 hour trial period was just to get the new player hooked on new Heroes, easy max armor and weapons, and then kick them out making them buy GWEN to get that stuff back.... a buyable "cheat mode", using your words!

Aerian_Skybane · Dec 12, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I can't help but sit back, stop coming up with my own reasons, and let Mordakai take over for us "don't care" or "it's cool" peeps. You've got the logic and the will to express it lol.

freekedoutfish · Dec 12, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estic

If he isn't I am.

What's the problem getting everyone on a level playing field when that is actually what it's all about in this game?

Oh, and even if the buff is a gimmick: why remove it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Level 1-19 has as much resemblance to guild wars as polymock and serves no purpose beyond making players that like seeing numbers go up comfortable. Giving players the buff everywhere (or just letting them create L20 characters in the first place) is a good thing as it lets them get on with playing with guild wars instead of forcing them into the L1-19 minigame.

Why play pve if you dont want to develop a character through levels, buy skills, armor and earn stuff. You all speak like you instantly want them to be lvl20 and full access to everything upon creation?

Wait a minute... that sounds remarkably like pvp!

So you basically want a pvp creation system in pve, where you make your character and their instantly lvl20, have full access to all skills, armor and weapons?

You want all this so you can instantly have access to full level creatures and high end areas and kick some ass? Not to mention get better drops and more gold!

People seem to be forgetting that one of the fundimental aspects of pve in an MMO/RPG is to be better then the guy next to you. GWs may not promote this idea, but it still exists in all online games. If your all on an equal footing, own all the same level from the word go, all own the same stuff and have nothing to strive for... why play pve?

They might aswell just scrap the pve develop, merge the battle ayles into pve and let us bring pvp characters into pve. That sounds like what you all want!

mazey vorstagg · Dec 12, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Ok, what about this:

Make it like HM, only people with who have completed a campaign on their account can have access to GWEN at lvl 10.

??

Mordakai · Dec 12, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

People seem to be forgetting that one of the fundimental aspects of pve in an MMO/RPG is to be better then the guy next to you.

No. The fundamental aspect of any game is to have fun. Of course, some people have fun trying to be "better" than the next guy, have "better" stuff, earn more gold, whatever. Since everyone's view of what's "fun" differs, it makes a universally entertaining game impossible to create.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

GWs may not promote this idea, but it still exists in all online games. If your all on an equal footing, own all the same level from the word go, all own the same stuff and have nothing to strive for... why play pve?

Why play single-player games? There is nothing to compete for.

Believe it or not, some people just play to play. Last night I zoned in and out of Sifhalla waiting for the White Moa flock to spawn. Why? Because I wanted a White Moa pet. Was it hard? No. Did it take a lot of time? No. Can anyone else in the world have a White Moa? Sure.

So why did I do it? Because I wanted one. I wish I could explain the reasons beyond that, but I just can't.

Not everyone finds leveling by itself a compelling reason to play Guild Wars. If they did, everyone would stop playing once they got to level 20.

bhavv · Dec 12, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I play PVE to develop my character, get new armor and weps and skills yes, BUT NOT TO LEVEL UP.

Will you please get it through your braindead thick skulls that leveling is insignificant in GW? EVEN THE DEVELOPERS OF THE GAME SAY IT IS.

Sheeeesh, I wish this thread and all the scrubs in it that highly value the meaningless 20 levels in GW would go away. Why do you play GW if your so bothered about leveling when it Is such an insignificant part of this game? Go play WoW instead.

MagmaRed · Dec 12, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Fish: Letting level 10 players into GW:EN is bad.
Everyone else: No, its not.
Fish: Well, it is because of x,y, and z.
Everyone else: X is wrong, y is a misunderstanding, and z is not important.
Fish: Ok, so letting level 10 players into GW:EN is not bad. BUT GIVING THEM A BUFF IS!!!!!!!
Everyone else: No, its not.

Does anyone else see a trend here? Soon the buff won't be so bad, but there will be a problem with the people getting heroes, PvE items, inscribable weapons, etc., etc., etc.

Fish, there is nothing about the GW:EN change that effects you. Nothing. It does not allow people to do better than you in PvP. It does not allow people to get weapons before you. It does not allow people to get armor that is better than they could already get.

The only thing it does, is give you something to cry about. Unless this turns into a flame war, it won't get closed.... unless you, as the Topic Creator, ask for it to be closed.

Close this thread, as it is pointless. Well, it has some point, it allows people to get post count.

Stolen Souls · Dec 12, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Well, it has some point, it allows people to get post count.

And in the end, isn't that all that matters?

EinherjarMx · Dec 12, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I just dont get why people want or need the buff. If a low level player wants to enter GWEN then great, but if they find it hard once they get there its their own fault for not being skilled enough at a low level to handle it.

you we the one who started asking for the norn/asuran bonuses outside its area,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

lol, good one

RLBadKarma · Dec 12, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Fish: Letting level 10 players into GW:EN is bad.
Everyone else: No, its not.
Fish: Well, it is because of x,y, and z.
Everyone else: X is wrong, y is a misunderstanding, and z is not important.
Fish: Ok, so letting level 10 players into GW:EN is not bad. BUT GIVING THEM A BUFF IS!!!!!!!
Everyone else: No, its not.

Does anyone else see a trend here? Soon the buff won't be so bad, but there will be a problem with the people getting heroes, PvE items, inscribable weapons, etc., etc., etc.

Fish, there is nothing about the GW:EN change that effects you. Nothing. It does not allow people to do better than you in PvP. It does not allow people to get weapons before you. It does not allow people to get armor that is better than they could already get.

The only thing it does, is give you something to cry about. Unless this turns into a flame war, it won't get closed.... unless you, as the Topic Creator, ask for it to be closed.

Close this thread, as it is pointless. Well, it has some point, it allows people to get post count.

What more could be said. I'm done here.

Aerian_Skybane · Dec 12, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I play PVE to develop my character, get new armor and weps and skills yes, BUT NOT TO LEVEL UP.

Will you please get it through your braindead thick skulls that leveling is insignificant in GW? EVEN THE DEVELOPERS OF THE GAME SAY IT IS.

Sheeeesh, I wish this thread and all the scrubs in it that highly value the meaningless 20 levels in GW would go away. Why do you play GW if your so bothered about leveling when it Is such an insignificant part of this game? Go play WoW instead.

Although I know what you are saying, I don't ignore levels. It adds to my experience as well. I agree with Mordakai because I like playing to play. Leveling up is fun to me, even after 20, I still get a rush when I gain a skill point and the animation flashes. Its exciting. I create new chars for the sole purpose of starting as a newb and leveling up.

Fish, your argument has shifted to unfair play advantage to the fact that it "ruins" new players experience (limiting your argument against the feature of the buff to less and less of a player base as you go along screaming). I could have made a droks run with my first character. I could have teamed up with a 20 who beat it twice before me. But I wanted the full experience for myself and whomever I played with at the point (Guild Your Mom [YoMo]). We didn't do any of that because we wanted to play it normally. Same situation applies now, you can CHOOSE to allow heroes to be a crutch, you can CHOOSE to go into GWEN pre-20 to get the buff (which at a certain level becomes a hex as it has been shown and I have tried it out). Or you can play through Prophecies as a whole first, or another campaign (although I find Prophecies syncs better for obvious reasons), and then join up the fun in GWEN. Its all up to an individual person. Thus, your complaint comes back to the e-preen infested argument, and thats why we don't like you. It is why you are adopted.

The above poster who said he was new and got the heroes early and such, he didn't have to do that, but he did, and he is complaining that he made a choice. I am glad I have those choices, and so do all players I have offered to bring heroes along in early parts of Proph. New players have actually said can we just play without heroes since you aren't supposed to get them till LA or Nightfall? They made a choice, which in gaming, is awesome. There are others who have asked to use my heroes and for me to switch to my 20 char to easily beat a mission. That's their choice. I don't go crying to ANet screaming that they aren't following the beaten path for new people. Why? Because I think its great that we have those choices to begin with.

After trying it out, the Buff is both a boost and a limit. It allows players to get started in GWEN, but also limits their build choices to an extent, and that was the big balancer to me. It limits choice when advancing beyond your "level" until your graduate to the right level. I still felt I had a lot to learn, I still had my LL monk owned because I did not have any experience with a monk. After trying it all out by myself, I see further no part of the anti-buff (since no one will poke their head out to oppose the low level entrance other than arrogant e-preeners and big box sellers) argument.

Godamnit: Now I am writing essays. Switching to Lolcats mode.

bigtime102 · Dec 12, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

The problem is the economy, giving low levels access to high end loot will kill the economy and trade which is a big part of this game that keeps people playing. Why else farm for high end drops? to make gold, no ones going to be making any gold when eventually everyone has the best weapons and mods and allowing low levels access to this will just speed up the death of the economy. There will be nothing left for PVE other than playing through the content. The PVE endgame - looking the best and being the richest will die and there wont be anyone playing PVE. Infact without a viable economy that leads to competition in PVE theres no reason to have this game online except for a 3d chat room.

Mordakai · Dec 12, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtime102

The problem is the economy, giving low levels access to high end loot will kill the economy and trade which is a big part of this game that keeps people playing. Why else farm for high end drops? to make gold, no ones going to be making any gold when eventually everyone has the best weapons and mods and allowing low levels access to this will just speed up the death of the economy. There will be nothing left for PVE other than playing through the content. The PVE endgame - looking the best and being the richest will die and there wont be anyone playing PVE. Infact without a viable economy that leads to competition in PVE theres no reason to have this game online except for a 3d chat room.

Oh please. You think the 6 hours (plus or minus) it takes to level up a character to 20 has any impact on the economy whatsoever?

Guild Wars was never about weapons or armor, or else the stats would be different on FOW armor. The sooner you accept that, the more fun you'll have.